Author Topic: Revit Files from Engineer  (Read 1276 times)

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Offline welchy78Topic starter

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Revit Files from Engineer
« on: Aug 22, 2017, 04:52:10 PM »
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get a Revit file from a stingy engineer? We have been getting MEP engineers who do not want to share their Revit file. They will only send us 2D CAD files. With us working in Revit now it would be much nicer to convert the engineers file and keep what works. Usually when they don't share them there is good reason because their model is garbage. Any suggestions for a good argument to get them or any legal reasons why the engineer should have to turn over their model would help. Thanks
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Offline cnash

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Re: Revit Files from Engineer
« Reply #1 on: Aug 22, 2017, 06:35:06 PM »
We have had the same issue.
And usually they state the legal issues with them handing it over.
It's been a little easier lately and we get a little more than we used to but it is still a struggle.
If anyone finds a way to convince them on a regular basis it would be nice to know.
Christopher Nash
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Offline VirtualPilot

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Re: Revit Files from Engineer
« Reply #2 on: Aug 23, 2017, 02:21:37 PM »
This is becoming a huge issue lately, they expect correct duct layouts on our part, but they do not want to release the Revit file so that we can use them for routing...

It is extremely hard to tell elevation changes from a PDF file.... sample attached on one I just did... took some imagination to come up what the round duct is doing in this area...
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Offline Phred

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Re: Revit Files from Engineer
« Reply #3 on: Aug 23, 2017, 09:39:36 PM »
We have had little luck getting the files, and the ones we do get are horrible with ductwork going thru steel beams, piping thru ductwork, ductwork lower than the ceilings, drainage piping is all flat, etc. Fire protection piping not modeled (but it never gets in our way)  Paper construction bid documents also seem to be getting worse, missing ductwork and pipe sizes. As a former consulting engineer, the allowed timeframe to engineer and produce bid documents is the weakness.
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Offline DonWunder

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Re: Revit Files from Engineer
« Reply #4 on: Aug 23, 2017, 10:45:46 PM »
As a former consulting engineer, the allowed timeframe to engineer and produce bid documents is the weakness.

In our market, I think it also has to do with the consulting engineer not getting paid enough and non-contractor experience to produce a constructable model. They don't hold the risk or incentive to produce a accurate/constructable model.

We normally don't have any issues getting the model but have yet to see one worth converting/using. We spend more time trying to convert the model from a consulting engineer than just using the pdf sheets for routes and sizes.
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Offline cadbyken

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Re: Revit Files from Engineer
« Reply #5 on: Aug 24, 2017, 01:08:39 PM »
We have had little luck getting the files, and the ones we do get are horrible with ductwork going thru steel beams, piping thru ductwork, ductwork lower than the ceilings, drainage piping is all flat, etc. Fire protection piping not modeled (but it never gets in our way)  Paper construction bid documents also seem to be getting worse, missing ductwork and pipe sizes.
And now you know why they will not release their files.  It shows how poor of a job they did.

Quote
As a former consulting engineer, the allowed timeframe to engineer and produce bid documents is the weakness.
Worked for an engineer for 11 years and it pains me to see what is being produced now a days.  They are dumping more of the work into the contractor's lap and making a bunch of money to do it too.

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Offline lsm_drafter

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Re: Revit Files from Engineer
« Reply #6 on: Aug 24, 2017, 01:13:51 PM »
I think it also has to do with the consulting engineer not being able and or qualified to produce a constructable model. They don't hold the risk or incentive to produce a accurate/constructable model.

FTFY  ;)

We normally don't have any issues getting the model but have yet to see one worth converting/using.

Amen. Just when I think I've seen the worst design yet, along comes another one that tops the last.  :(

The ones we do get are horrible with ductwork going thru steel beams, piping thru ductwork, ductwork lower than the ceilings, drainage piping is all flat, etc. Paper construction bid documents also seem to be getting worse, missing ductwork and pipe sizes. As a former consulting engineer, the allowed timeframe to engineer and produce bid documents is the weakness.

Truly a sad state of affairs. All the tools currently at their disposal that are supposed to make their ability to design a project "faster and more efficiently" seems to only provide them with the ability to quickly produce some "lines on paper" and shove it out the door...  >:(

Since contract plans are now typically delivered electronically (via pdf format) they no longer even serve as crude TP.  :o

And now you know why they will not release their files.  It shows how poor of a job they did.
They are dumping more of the work into the contractor's lap and making a bunch of money to do it too.

Both of which should be against the law. At some point I would expect a design firm to be called out and sued for negligence. If it doesn't start happening soon, then at least it should.  :P
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Offline cyan

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Re: Revit Files from Engineer
« Reply #7 on: Aug 24, 2017, 01:33:54 PM »
Since contract plans are now typically delivered electronically (via pdf format) they no longer even serve as crude TP.  :o

Not with that attitude

Offline Darren Young

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Re: Revit Files from Engineer
« Reply #8 on: Aug 24, 2017, 01:59:51 PM »
In this industry, an mechanical engineer is typically hired to produce a system design.  That's not the same thing as a coordinated document used for fabrication and construction. I'm not sure why it surprises people that it often lacks suitability for construction.

Mechanical engineering is also an iterative process, not linear like construction. It's a different process in addition to a different deliverable.  If you look at the inner workings of a mechanical engineering firm, you'll most likely see they rarely have time to do really great design. They do the best they can within the allowed time. Proposal floats around for some time, then phone rings...you've got a million sq feet of industrial space. Design needs to be complete in 30 days with operational facility in 9 months.

No different than there's rarely enough schedule to properly handle detailing and coordination, they have the same issue on the design side. Why would we want them to take into consideration construction slowing them further?

I'd rather they didn't model at all. Model it right the first time by qualified detailers using other engineering documents like redlined plans, P&ID's, etc.

That being said, the liability issue is non-sense and shows general lack on knowledge on the subject by the firms that don't want to share their models. There is no liability issue because they are only liable for the intent of their work which is design. They are not liable for the derivative works of others if those derivative works were produced using information from the design document for which it wasn't intended. The law in the US is very simple and clear on this.
« Last Edit: Aug 24, 2017, 02:02:23 PM by Darren Young »

Offline cyan

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Re: Revit Files from Engineer
« Reply #9 on: Aug 24, 2017, 02:21:09 PM »
That being said, the liability issue is non-sense and shows general lack on knowledge on the subject by the firms that don't want to share their models. There is no liability issue because they are only liable for the intent of their work which is design. They are not liable for the derivative works of others if those derivative works were produced using information from the design document for which it wasn't intended. The law in the US is very simple and clear on this.

This raises the question I have. What happened that set this precedent? This notion that if they do share, they will be held liable for constructibility even though, as you say and I agree, the law is clear on this. Was there a stint of time where they were getting lawsuits about this from contractors?

Offline Admin

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Re: Revit Files from Engineer
« Reply #10 on: Aug 24, 2017, 04:47:56 PM »
...mechanical engineer is typically hired to produce a system design. That's not the same thing as a coordinated document used for fabrication and construction. I'm not sure why it surprises people that it often lacks suitability for construction.

I agree with much that you say Darren, but a designer has a responsibility to produce a 'workable' design, i.e. a system that can physically be installed within the confines of the building.
If, after a reasonable amount of time spent unsuccessfully trying to fit services in a space, you are quite within your rights to go back to the designer and ask him to provide a solution or an alternative design for that area.
Maybe they don't want to issue their models as it would highlight areas where they know there is a problem but hope that you will spend hours trying to resolve or propose an alternative?
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Offline cnash

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Re: Revit Files from Engineer
« Reply #11 on: Aug 24, 2017, 06:27:54 PM »
In this industry, an mechanical engineer is typically hired to produce a system design.  That's not the same thing as a coordinated document used for fabrication and construction. I'm not sure why it surprises people that it often lacks suitability for construction.

Mechanical engineering is also an iterative process, not linear like construction. It's a different process in addition to a different deliverable.  If you look at the inner workings of a mechanical engineering firm, you'll most likely see they rarely have time to do really great design. They do the best they can within the allowed time. Proposal floats around for some time, then phone rings...you've got a million sq feet of industrial space. Design needs to be complete in 30 days with operational facility in 9 months.

No different than there's rarely enough schedule to properly handle detailing and coordination, they have the same issue on the design side. Why would we want them to take into consideration construction slowing them further?

I'd rather they didn't model at all. Model it right the first time by qualified detailers using other engineering documents like redlined plans, P&ID's, etc.

That being said, the liability issue is non-sense and shows general lack on knowledge on the subject by the firms that don't want to share their models. There is no liability issue because they are only liable for the intent of their work which is design. They are not liable for the derivative works of others if those derivative works were produced using information from the design document for which it wasn't intended. The law in the US is very simple and clear on this.


Here is my issue with what you have said...
We get models and are told "This is a fully coordinated, constructible model", then we get into it and it isn't even close to being coordinated and by no means can be constructed as drawn.
Christopher Nash
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William R. Nash Companies

Offline Darren Young

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Re: Revit Files from Engineer
« Reply #12 on: Aug 24, 2017, 06:36:30 PM »
We get models and are told "This is a fully coordinated, constructible model", then we get into it and it isn't even close to being coordinated and by no means can be constructed as drawn.

Read your contract.

Handcuff the detailers, make them save your rear, then beat them up on hours.

That's standard in every contract.

Offline Phred

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Re: Revit Files from Engineer
« Reply #13 on: Aug 24, 2017, 09:41:53 PM »
now that I work for a mechanical contractor, for certain engineering firms we add additional percentage to the bid and or sometimes don't even bid their projects. Same goes for architectural firms. Architects and engineers need to visit a construction site every now and then, and open their eyes. Deer in the headlights.
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Offline Admin

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Re: Revit Files from Engineer
« Reply #14 on: Aug 24, 2017, 10:02:43 PM »
We get models and are told "This is a fully coordinated, constructible model", then we get into it and it isn't even close to being coordinated and by no means can be constructed as drawn.

Yeah, but I bet it is the Main (General) Contractor telling you this so that your bid to him is lower. Then afterwards they will say something like 'We were told by the designer that it was fully coordinated - you should have checked some congested areas before submitting your price'.
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