Author Topic: Full User - Services  (Read 6411 times)

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Offline jmerchTopic starter

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Full User - Services
« on: Jan 27, 2012, 02:39:43 AM »
So, I act as the Full user all the time.  I obviously have access to everything.  I have one of my CAD guys use a login which lets him edit services and database so he can create services for jobs, etc.  Yesterday I went into our template services to edit some things on our service templates.  I would apply/OK after each change and even at times getting out of the service dialog altogether and back in just to make sure the changes stuck.  Then today I go back to edit some more, and notice SOME of my changes didn't stick.  I asked the other user if he was modifying services while I was and he said he wasn't (even though if one of us was, the other user would be locked out, right?).

So, to test this, I got into the service dialog and started editing, then had him get into the services.  He could get in when I was in and it let him edit.  Then, I edited his MAPUSER to not be able to edit services.  Had him do MAPLOGOUT and log back in.  He could still edit services.  Then had him exit ACAD and get back in, he could still edit.  I checked while I was the only one in the services and the service.lok was there.  Our computers are all pathed to the same locations as far as PM Shared.

Why is this going on?  Does it have anything to do that I'm on the current version and he is still on Lok 20?  It shouldn't right?  Sounds like a rookie question but it's boggling me.
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Offline bknapton

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Re: Full User - Services
« Reply #1 on: Jan 27, 2012, 13:10:26 PM »
I have noticed that when a user is logged in as CAD they can change the services but it doesn't get saved.  Is this what's happening with you?
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Offline jmerchTopic starter

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Re: Full User - Services
« Reply #2 on: Jan 27, 2012, 13:17:07 PM »
I changed our CAD user to be able to edit services.  And it used to be if you didn't have rights, it would be greyed out so you couldn't make changes.  Then if someone else is in services at same time, it would let you know that the changes can't be saved.

But even when I edit the CAD user to not be able to edit, he still can.
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Offline bknapton

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Re: Full User - Services
« Reply #3 on: Jan 27, 2012, 13:23:47 PM »
Yeah I noticed that also.  Not sure what build changed that.
Does your service.map file get cleared to 0kb when you are both editing services?  Happened here last week and freaked me out.
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Offline jmerchTopic starter

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Re: Full User - Services
« Reply #4 on: Jan 27, 2012, 13:26:48 PM »
I dunno...didn't look at that.  So are all of you on same version, or some on different and have you noticed any affect on services?
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Offline bknapton

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Re: Full User - Services
« Reply #5 on: Jan 27, 2012, 13:42:46 PM »
We only noticed it because all of our services disappeared.
We are all on the same build for CAD, CAM and EST.
I knew the hangers were changing.
I now get an dimension error when we draw sweet copper with insulation.
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Offline ksperop37

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Re: Full User - Services
« Reply #6 on: Jan 10, 2014, 14:27:13 PM »
I am still runnning into this problem in 2014.  Even if the non-admin user has no rights to do anything, they can still edit the services (service types, button mapping, layers, etc.).  This has got to be fixed.  Personally, I would like to see a couple more options to be added.  The one I get more times than not, is to be able to access the FOLDERS interface so if a user needs to use a part that is not included in the service template, they can easily go grab it themselves.  The only problem with that, is that if you give these users access to the FOLDERS, they can move, copy, rename, etc. the items within the library.  So I guess my request for Autodesk would be the following:

1.  Create (or reinstate) access to modify the services and everything within that service.
2.  When someone has access to the folders within AutoCAD, limit them to only have access to drop the ITM into their drawing file.
3.  Create access that limits who can add to the library via SAVETOFOLDER, SAVEASSUBASSEMBLY, etc.
4.  Create access that limits who can import services, profiles, ancillaries, etc.
Kyle

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Offline Darren Young

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Re: Full User - Services
« Reply #7 on: Jan 10, 2014, 15:51:12 PM »
We limit ANY admin service to a single account that enforces single login. Nobody uses this account for production...only admin.

Using an admin account (with any degree of admin abilities) puts your database at risk. Anything you open that may create bracketed items in the database tables could get added to the DB (just as opening a CADmep drawing from another firm or a real old legacy drawing).

We use to have "odd" random issues with our database. Every time I've restricted and locked down access, those random add issues go away and things become stable.

The database files just aren't designed to allow multiple users to edit them at the same time. Attempting to do so may work but at some point, you're just asking for trouble.

In a traditional database like Access, change occur immediately in the database. No need to save. The database application is reading/writing to the database in real time. That's how it's transaction model works.

With the CADmep database files, the transaction model is not the same. The database is read into memory and that's it until you click an Ok or Apply button to flush the transaction back to the file.  This is why depending on what you are doing, even admin'ing the database yourself forces you to exit and reload the database to see all the changes you just made. With two users independently making changes which are initially only temporarily resident in their system's memory, it's possible (based on timing) that each independent entry that make creates the same/new database ID.

Just not a good idea IMO to allow multiple folks to have any level of admin aside from creating/editing ITM's (very little change someone edits the same ITM at the same time). The only exception are any settings that reside in a *.MAP file that are local to the user's system ensuring they are the only user of those files. Those are typically benign items however like the configured columns in Quick TakeOff which CADmep considers a "user" setting as opposed to global.

Offline ksperop37

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Re: Full User - Services
« Reply #8 on: Jan 10, 2014, 16:07:52 PM »
I'm not looking to give anyone admin rights except for myself (the controller of the software/database).  As it stands now, each user only has the right to automatically login.  My admin user rights force a login with the correct username and password needed before any changes can be made (like you mention above).  Somewhere along the line, MAP/Autodesk has given a non-admin user the right to make changes to the database such as services, layers, button mapping, etc.  Basically, I don't want any of the users (except admin) to have access to the database or any other settings.  I just want them to be able to open the FOLDERS interface within AutoCad and pull in a fitting that is not included in their service templates.
Kyle

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Offline Darren Young

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Re: Full User - Services
« Reply #9 on: Jan 10, 2014, 16:21:31 PM »
I'm not looking to give anyone admin rights except for myself (the controller of the software/database).  As it stands now, each user only has the right to automatically login.  My admin user rights force a login with the correct username and password needed before any changes can be made (like you mention above).  Somewhere along the line, MAP/Autodesk has given a non-admin user the right to make changes to the database such as services, layers, button mapping, etc.  Basically, I don't want any of the users (except admin) to have access to the database or any other settings.  I just want them to be able to open the FOLDERS interface within AutoCad and pull in a fitting that is not included in their service templates.

Those things don't get saved back to the DB however....at least I don't think so. Several builds ago they did.

I hear what your saying and agree but the question I'm wondering is...is there are reason we (other companies) "would" want a user to be able to temporarily change those settings?  Perhaps to temporarily change button mapping to fill in a design line alternatively? 

This is really a tough issue in my mine that applies to most products....what one person things is a local user setting, another typically wants to control globally and vice versa.

Take for instance the Quick TakeOff column configuration in CAMduct. Autodesk/MAP thinks this is a "user" setting and stores them in the local Windows user profile. Our CAM users want the column configurations the same between users and machines to keep workflow consistent. So every upgrade, I'm copying/pasting those files.

With regard to a user being able to change the button mapping or other things....I'm asking only as playing devil's advocate. Perhaps there's something I'm missing that would make this an advantage (if used properly).

Offline ksperop37

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Re: Full User - Services
« Reply #10 on: Jan 10, 2014, 16:33:02 PM »
Currently, we are running everything through me for service setup and/or modifications.  Even a button mapping.  We have tried to play devil's advocate as a departmen, like you suggest.  The consensus was to make it a priority to standardize almost everything we do.  With users having the privileges to go in and modify things (whether intentional or not) is not acceptable to me as the keeper of the software.
Kyle

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Offline Darren Young

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Re: Full User - Services
« Reply #11 on: Jan 10, 2014, 16:37:15 PM »
Agree. Same here. We even lock down CAD Settings which most companies seem to leave open.

Tried opening it up for one of our divisions per their detailing manager. After all, there are some legitimate settings (T.O.P./B.O.P./etc) that you may want to tweak based on what you're doing.

However, the users and their "creativity" didn't let me down and nobody was producing a visually consistent looking drawing so it got locked back down.

As users are always a problem, I'm looking to find a job w/a company that no users. ;-)

Offline ksperop37

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Re: Full User - Services
« Reply #12 on: Jan 10, 2014, 16:39:43 PM »
As users are always a problem, I'm looking to find a job w/a company that no users. ;-)

That would definitely take care of any issues we may all have when trying to standardize! :)
Kyle

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