Author Topic: Aren't we Modelers?  (Read 12456 times)

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Offline tombonTopic starter

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Aren't we Modelers?
« on: Mar 30, 2007, 03:12:06 AM »
This is a quiet topic.  Kind of odd when you consider all the buzz about this "new" process - Building Information Modeling.  IsnĀ“t that what we have been doing forever?
-Tom

Offline cadbyken

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Re: Aren't we Modelers?
« Reply #1 on: Mar 30, 2007, 17:35:56 PM »
You are right in a way but I look at it this way.  The mechanical drawings are "conceptual" where they have modeled the building.  In the real world, we (the mechanical contractors) take that less than perfect concept and make it work by doing the coordination they should have done at the begining.  Another way to look at it is this, like the BASF commercials, we do not make (design) the buildings, we make the buildings better (actually work).  Just my 2 cents worth.
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Offline badastinner

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Re: Aren't we Modelers?
« Reply #2 on: Feb 02, 2008, 15:21:14 PM »
Amen brother!~!  I've been told several times by engineers and architect that thier drawing are schematic in nature and only give route and size.  Then I say give me single line drawings if i have to make it all fit anyway.  But then every time i change something or say something doesn't fit they always want to question and refer back to their 2-d schematic only drawings.  JMHO :)
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Offline cadbyken

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Re: Aren't we Modelers?
« Reply #3 on: Feb 02, 2008, 23:47:44 PM »
I am not sure how it is in other regions but some the engineer's drawings are really poor.  I currently have a fast pace job, elementary schoo, where they are coming out of the ground as I draw.  The problem is that the engineer routed 14" ductwork and there is literally only 5 1/2" between the steel and lights!  Even if we dropped the ceilings to 8'-0" it wouldn't fit.  Now they have to decide real quick if they are going to add 2 more blocks around the one building.  On another building, the engineer routed 24" deep duct where only an 18" deep duct will go.  Problem there is that the mechanical room doesn't have enough space to get the ductwork out like they originally showed.  Guess who has to redesign the system and get it to work with the likely hood of no extra money?  I guess it is my fault since I took the job knowing who the engineer was (tried to get extra $$$ because but was turned down).  They have really messed up two other jobs that I worked on.  Can't wait until I get into a meeting with these clowns one day.
Ken Taylor - Atlantic Constructors, Inc
Database Manager/ITM content creator but normally working on Mech pipe systems
Revit - not ready for Primetime given all of the add-ons, work arounds, and general issues with Fabrication in Revit.  Tired of them taking our money for little results.

Offline nbkwbn1

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Re: Aren't we Modelers?
« Reply #4 on: Dec 27, 2009, 16:21:32 PM »
I changed jobs two years ago, to a company that does design-build, (versus using engineering & mech contracting firms separately), and we still have these problems. I just finished re-routing storm leaders that penetrated the outside walls directly over outside air intakes. The goofiest part was that this design that put the storm line scuppers directly over the OA louvers was a re-design itself. After all the architectural professionals and our engineers did their best, I knew it was a non-starter after looking at the schematic drawing for five seconds. I guess it really boils down to practical application, like Ken describes. If you've actually installed duct/ pipe in the field, you'd never come up with unworkable design in the first place

Offline Bobby T

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Re: Aren't we Modelers?
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2010, 21:26:31 PM »
AMEN to all. We are a DB firm, and ru into problems like these on plan spec jobs all the time. A lot of the issue lies within the building design itself. Architects want to give you NO ROOm for essential services. Someday maybe we can put water heaters, air handlers and the like in invisible room son the street in front of the building. I guess that will be the 7th or 8th dimension. :)
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Offline Tin_Knockers

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Re: Aren't we Modelers?
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2010, 21:41:42 PM »
All the good engineers are in Dubai.  This is what's left! ;)
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Offline Tstright

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Re: Aren't we Modelers?
« Reply #7 on: Jun 04, 2010, 11:59:34 AM »
Modeler? I would say No.

Modelers create something that may or may not work.

We're Coordinators that take a Model or Design and Coordinate it for Code and to fit within the space allowed.....
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Offline VirtualPilot

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Re: Aren't we Modelers?
« Reply #8 on: Jun 04, 2010, 12:58:32 PM »
Quote from: Tin_Knockers
All the good engineers are in Dubai.  This is what's left! ;)

Also in Abu Dhabi...  seen the documentary of the Round Skyscraper?
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Offline Zorg

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Re: Aren't we Modelers?
« Reply #9 on: Oct 06, 2010, 14:16:03 PM »
This is why im not just a co-ordinator. Im a Modeler, and my model is proof of my coordination. without it, i wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on in most cases
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Offline mgeiger

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Re: Aren't we Modelers?
« Reply #10 on: Nov 23, 2010, 17:31:59 PM »
Here's another one...
How about when they draw a duct in, say 16x10 and label it 24x14.  The smaller fits in their revit model amazingly with no clashes!!!  Of course, when we convert their mechanical model through FAB-MEP, you find real quick how they got the duct through that tight spot

Offline badastinner

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Re: Aren't we Modelers?
« Reply #11 on: Jul 15, 2014, 16:24:17 PM »
Yes..Revit has brought an entirely different dimension to the equation.  Now they sell the model as coordinated when over 70% of the duct fittings, taps, etc etc can't even be made the way they've modeled them.  Now we're fight everyone because the "conversion" has to be redrawn and the owner basically is paying for coordination twice.  Engineers should design and let coordinators coordinate.  Stay out of 3d or at least don't say it's all coordinated.
Arron
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What the ___? Where did everything go?

Offline lsm_drafter

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Re: Aren't we Modelers?
« Reply #12 on: Jul 18, 2014, 00:38:36 AM »
Garbage in, garbage out. We've been plagued by the lack of "coordination" at all levels when it comes to "coordinated" models. A/E cry that their field is too competitive for them to be able to devote the resources to it, which is about the same claim we hear from usually the plumbers and electricians. Electricians claim "we don't have to model anything under 1" (when they model anything at all), which they interpret to include five foot racks of hundreds of 3/4" conduits. Plumbers (when they do participate) typically lag behind and pretend to go through the motions, only to turn their field guys loose with contract plans and no actual "coordinated" shop drawings to work from. Working on a project right now with over three years invested into design and 3D coordination, only to be stomped on by every other trade throughout the entire project by a race to "get in first" and a GC with no backbone to enforce the 3D model, with the final result being "the ductwork can move".

I'm sure there are very knowledgeable and capable plumbing and electrical designers/modelers out there. In fact, many of the plumbing modelers here on this forum appear to be knowledgeable, competent, and conscientious. There just aren't enough of them here in Central Florida!

Not that I'm bitter or anything...
« Last Edit: Jul 18, 2014, 02:48:50 AM by lsm_drafter »
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Offline Tstright

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Re: Aren't we Modelers?
« Reply #13 on: Jul 22, 2014, 17:40:21 PM »
Plumbers (when they do participate) typically lag behind and pretend to go through the motions, only to turn their field guys loose with contract plans and no actual "coordinated" shop drawings to work from.

Where I started out in DC, Plumbers lead the way for close to a decade on coordination in the 3D world....
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Offline cgb

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Re: Aren't we Modelers?
« Reply #14 on: Jul 22, 2014, 19:23:19 PM »
Electricians claim "we don't have to model anything under 1" (when they model anything at all), which they interpret to include five foot racks of hundreds of 3/4" conduits. Plumbers (when they do participate) typically lag behind and pretend to go through the motions, only to turn their field guys loose with contract plans and no actual "coordinated" shop drawings to work from.

I've been doing this up in Canada in one form or another since 2006/07.   I am a plumber and we have been modeling all of our heating and plumbing since then.   I have to agree that the electricians are difficult to get on board,  but recently I have seen them putting in a good effort.

Working on a project right now with over three years invested into design and 3D coordination, only to be stomped on by every other trade throughout the entire project by a race to "get in first" and a GC with no backbone to enforce the 3D model, with the final result being "the ductwork can move".

Ductwork only moves for plumbing drains.  I am surprised that no one has mentioned....   "CLAIMS"  because thats  just negligent.   Up here we don't accept that.  Sorry, we provided model of what we were going to do and you did not have any comment although you had plenty of time for input.  Not our problem.

Not that I'm bitter or anything...

Construction is a hard adversarial business.  Modeling is supposed to take away some of that.