Author Topic: Stiffeners (Read 22046 times)

cadbob · « **on:** Jul 22, 2011, 11:50:31 AM »

We need Stiffeners By either Pressure Class and Long Side/ Short Size.

We are 1/2 way there, as on the "Item Tab" we have Stiffeners #1 all we need is Stiffeners #2!!

There are break points now in New Version but you cant use the same stiffener if the other pressure file has different Break points for same Stiffener.

There are work around's of course but this addition to CADduct is a plus for all.

It would also be nice if when Cam'ed it would report the then type stiffener for that panel as well. This would take Shop Charts and Foreman/Journey Men from having to baby sit and look to how many or what type stiffener goes on short panel.

cadbob · « **Reply #1 on:** Jul 22, 2011, 12:32:45 PM »

4"wg and 84x48 duct you will get CTR(2)/JTR with Break Point at 48 you get 1 Center and 1 End. Under the 4"wg Chart this is correct.
But lets say you are doing 2"wg use same size 84x48 you will get CTR(2)/JTR which is whats called for, but in your Break Point Table the 48 side calls for 1 center and 1 end which would be wrong in chart as on the 2"wg all thats required is 1 center.

Yes there can be work around set so said Stiffner is set in 4"wg Pressure file with certain name (ie: 4wg-CTR(2)/JTR) and/or code be used and a another one for the 2"wg Pressure file (ie: 2wg-CTR(2)/JTR) with the Break points set for that pressure file.

Tryle · « **Reply #2 on:** Jul 22, 2011, 16:56:59 PM »

The changes to the stiffeners has made implementing them for our shop a much easier task than previously was able to be accomplished because of the extensive nesting previously involved to get the outcome you desired. Now determining tie-rod requirements is akin to setting up a pressure class inside of a pressure class. By this, I mean you setup a pressure class to determine your gauges, connectors, and seams, but you only call the stiffener "pressure class" to determine what stiffeners you need, rather than the actual pressure class determining the stiffeners.

Here's an example using our +4" pressure class table for how we handle tie-rods.

We break our pressure class into joint lengths of 5', 4', 3', 2'6, and 2' just like SMACNA does. In each joint length break we determine our gauges, connectors, seams, etc.. and we reference our stiffener "pressure class" to see what stiffeners we need.

Example of our +4" pressure class table here with the arrow pointing to the stiffener "pressure class" to be referenced.

We have created a different stiffener "pressure class" for each of our length break points since the requirements change for each joint length break as we all know.

Example of our +4" stiffener "pressure classes" here.

And finally within each of our stiffener "pressure classes" are the different requirements determined by the breakpoints.

Example of our 4"wg at the 5'-0" breakpoint here.

The above example only shows the tie-rod stiffener breakpoints which determines quantities and locations, but don't forget the other two breakpoint fields to fill out which determine tie-rod types and the last breakpoint field which handles external stiffening such as angle iron.

Setting our database up in this manner allows all items that are CAM'd to have the proper holes made in the fittings/straights only where the tie-rod is required to be installed. No extra holes that need to be plugged are made. The name of the stiffener "pressure class" always coincides with the length of the piece, so as a double check we review the name with the fittings length.

- Tryle

Tryle · « **Reply #3 on:** Jul 22, 2011, 17:04:47 PM »

The major thing that changed which isn't abundantly clear is that in the past, the pressure class was only read (1) time to determine the quantities and locations of stiffeneners, so in your example of an 84x48 duct... the pressure class was read once for the 84" side since it was longest and everything was based off this one side which makes it wrong for the 48" side like you explained.

Now that isn't true and both sides of the duct are read by the pressure class to determine stiffening independently from one another which is why my previous post works.

cam-nav · « **Reply #4 on:** Jul 22, 2011, 17:31:57 PM »

Looks like you are on a newer version than me because of the stiffener breakpoints for the Width and Depth.

Looks like it would do as it should except for the fact you still can't specify what diameter of stiffener you need in the breakpoints. That looks like it is still controlled globally for the one stiffener name or am I wrong?

Tryle · « **Reply #5 on:** Jul 22, 2011, 17:43:32 PM »

Quote from: cam-nav

Looks like you are on a newer version than me because of the stiffener breakpoints for the Width and Depth.

Looks like it would do as it should except for the fact you still can't specify what diameter of stiffener you need in the breakpoints. That looks like it is still controlled globally for the one stiffener name or am I wrong?

You can specify. This example shows only the one entry, but you can see how you could break it out.

cam-nav · « **Reply #6 on:** Jul 22, 2011, 18:18:36 PM »

Oh, I gotta update!

cadbob · « **Reply #7 on:** Jul 23, 2011, 03:44:29 AM »

Nice explanation Tryle and that is one way on how to work around it and I most say took some time. I do see your only using Long Side Dimension, we use Long Side/Short Side though.

Thank You

You could also name your stiffeners by the perspective wg and only use them in that water gauge of course you also have to set your Break Points for your holes.

But a far simpler way is to have MAP add another table for Short Side. We are 1/2 way there.
We should be able to call out the Stiffener per Side and call out the Stiffener by name as to opposed of Coding and using Charts in Shop.
I asked Andy to wish list this today

Tryle · « **Reply #8 on:** Jul 28, 2011, 21:26:26 PM »

Thanks for the compliment Bob.

There really is no eloquent way of setting up tie-rods. Fortunately i do understand their intent and have got a working solution going, but my long side only pressure classes are not as fleshed out as a long side/short side table definitely would be.

Hopefully some day some formal documentation from MAP will surface about tie-rods and perhaps a flow diagram of the logic behind the routines work starting from a pressure class table and what things are read next and how many times.

I love the complexity and power of the software, but I'm afraid a lot of it is wasted because the end user doesn't know how to use it because there's no documentation to accompany it!

Phred · « **Reply #9 on:** Jul 29, 2011, 13:19:36 PM »

The 6/15/11 help file (700+ pages) has a pretty good explanation of stiffners and their associated breakpoint files, but probably not as in depth as stated above

cadbob · « **Reply #10 on:** Jul 29, 2011, 13:43:15 PM »

Quote from: PHRED

The 6/15/11 help file (700+ pages) has a pretty good explanation of stiffners and their associated breakpoint files, but probably not as in depth as stated above

Phred, yes PDF is good. MAP has done awesome job once again. But Stiffeners do not do long side / short side at the moment.

CADduct needs to treat each side as a separate entity for this to work correctly. I would imagine there is a lot of codeing to accomplish this as with L Shape duct would require a different sticker with a different stiffener when called for. Full piece Wrap duct would also require 2 stiffeners printed on label.
Hopefully its on wish list now.

Haha · « **Reply #11 on:** Jul 29, 2011, 16:04:27 PM »

Bob. I think it does now. Let me test again, but pretty sure it does.

Tryle · « **Reply #12 on:** Jul 29, 2011, 17:21:16 PM »

Wow there was a new helpfile published 6-15? How the hell did I miss this?

jabowabo · « **Reply #13 on:** Jul 29, 2011, 17:29:58 PM »

Quote from: Tryle

Wow there was a new helpfile published 6-15? How the hell did I miss this?

http://www.xtracad.com/forum/index.php?topic=9368

Haha · « **Reply #14 on:** Jul 29, 2011, 19:49:10 PM »

Bob. Yes they do!!